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[karin]

I've just bought a great book - Igér by Hlavacska Edit (I highly recommend this!). I'm working on the chapter about whether to use indefinite or definite endings. But I have a question...
The gapfill question to answer was:
Most.......(olvas, én) azt a könyvet, amelyiket a múlt héten......(kölcsönad, te).
My answer was:
Most olvasom azt a könyvet, amelyiket a múlt héten adtad kölcsön.
I then checked the answer in the back and it gave my answer (I was v happy ) but it also gave the following possibility:
Most olvasom azt a könyvet, amelyiket a múlt héten adtál kölcsön.
I don't understand why both are possible as I thought words ending in -ik like melyik etc must have the definite ending. can someone help me understand please?
Thanks! Karin.
P.S. I know I should write in Hungarian in this forum for extra practice - but I'm scared!

[warrior]

Hi Karin,

What an interesting and intriguing question? I must say that as a native speaker of Hungarian I would have automatically gone for the indefinite conjugation in the second half of the sentence. The first version sounds rather awkward to me. (I’ve said it to myself over and over again, but it still sounds just as strange as it did the first time.)
Anyway, I tried to come up with an answer to your question, and I was pretty sure that that relative pronoun (in Hungarian “vonatkozó névmás”) in the middle of the sentence (amelyiket) had something to do with it. Then I got stuck! Google, however, faithfully helped me out!
I found a document on the object – verb (defininte or indenite?) agreement. It said that despite the fact that realtive pronouns (vonatkozó névmások) have a „definitive” feel to them, they still require indefinite conjugation for the verb they go with. According to the article, relative pronouns originate from interrogative-indefinite pronouns (kérdő-határozatlan névmás) and they follow the verb agreement accordingly (indefinite). (Most olvasom azt a könyvet, amelyiket a múlt héten adtál kölcsön.)

The article also tells you that in Transylvania it was common practice to use the definite conjuagation after realative pronouns. Knowing this, I can see why your book listed the first version (Most olvasom azt a könyvet, amelyiket a múlt héten adtad kölcsön.)

You mentioned that pronouns ending in –ik must be followed by definite conjugation. This article also talks about it, however, it’s more careful with the wording and says that most (!) pronouns ending in –ik make the object definite. So, definite conjugation is not a MUST.

If you or anyone else wants to read about object-verb agreement, here’s the link to this very interesting article: http://www.c3.hu/~magyarnyelv/03-1/horvath.pdf

[olivier]

In that article the part with -ik examples shows cases of grammatical mistakes, it begins with: "A szemlét olyan adatokkal kezdem, amelyekben a határozott tárgy mellett általános igeragozás áll a szabályos határozott helyett."
In Google:
amelyiket akarsz = 0 result, amelyiket akarod = 236 results,
melyiket akarsz? = 1 result (familiar language, near a "bazz" ), melyiket akarod? = 378 results.
Amit is certainly followed by indefinite conjugation, but amelyiket or melyiket seems to require definite conjugation.
-- Olivier
_________________
Se nem kicsi, se nem nagy: Ni trop petit(e), ni trop grand(e):
Éppen hozzám való vagy! Tu es juste fait(e) pour moi!

[karin]

Hello Olivier!
Thanks so much for taking the time out to help solve my grammar problem! It's very interesting to hear that as a native speaker, you would have automatically put the indefinite ending in the example sentence. Your explanation makes sense to me, in terms of the verbal relationship in the relative clause. Only your second message has slightly confused me. Do I understand correctly that usage seems to dictate a definite ending after amelyik after all? I'm sorry if I'm being slow in the uptake!

[karin]

Sorry I just noticed that the 1st message was from warrior - my thanks go to you for the link to the article and the thorough explanation! My confusion still remains after olivier's message......
Thanks for all efforts to explain!!

[klaus]

Sziasztok!

I´d like to offer one more (very personal, i know) way to solve this gramatical question.
I think both sentences can be correct...but the two variations express different meanings.

The definite conjugation in the hungarian language is a very easy but mighty way to 'set the focus to an object'.
Saying 'Olvasom azt a könyvet' instead of 'Olvasok egy könyvet' you set the focus to the book. Even more, you 'transfer' the focus from the fact of reading a book to the fact that you´re reading exactly this book. Okey, while the book has got the focus, you dont need to set it one more time in the second part of the sentence. In the second part you just tell the reader that you´ve got this (special) book last week. It´s the book that we already know from the first part of the sentence.
But you also can set the focus a second time, for example if you want to express, that you are reading the book that your friend gave you (exactly) last week(!), and not that one you´ve got before or after. In this case you have to use the definite conjugation one time more. You say ' ...,amelyiket a múlt héten(!) adtad kölcsön'.
Also a second time you might use the definite conjugation, if you want to set the focus to any other fact in the sentence. ('kölcsönad' instead of 'eladni')
So I think the use of the definite conjugation is, beneath the gramatical rules, specialy a question of setting the focus to something.

Please excuse my horrible english! sorry!
This probably is a very unconventional explanation, maybe. Please tell me!

üdv Klaus

[Guest]

Hi Karin,

As I've said before, your question is a really fascinating and intriguing one. I actually wanted to see what some other native speakers would say on the matter, so I called my brother, sister-in-law and father. Interestingly enough, both my brother and my sister-in-law chose the second version without hasitation. My dad also ended up opting for the second version, though he did some switching, swapping and mulling over for a while. It would be interesting to go out on the streets of Budapest, or where ever you are, and see which version the general public would go for.

I also constructed some sentences to see if I get some enlightenment.
Here are these two, very simple sentences:
Azt hoztam, amelyiket kérted. vs Azt hoztam, amit kértél.
I believe that in the case of these simeple sentences no one would make the mistake of using the definite conjugaiton after "amelyik" or the indefinite conjugatin after "ami". (See Oliver's well put last sentence.)
However, if I make theses sentences a little bit fancier, (Azt hoztam, amelyiket három nappal ezelőtt kértél. versus Azt hoztam, amelyiket három nappal ezelőtt kérted.), I seem to get less bound by the rule, as if this litte immersion got me off track, and I end up using the indefinite conjutation with "amelyiket". This tendency seems to run in my family , because the same happened with my brother, father and even my sister-in-law. Again, I wonder what other Hungarians would do.

Anyway, I'm not a liguist, so all you've just read is my thinking-out-loud.

[karin]

Wow! Thanks to you all so much! The combination of all your explanations and my resulting mullings over on the matter, have really got me understanding so much more about definite/indefinite - it's really helped to be able to 'discuss' this and think about it. I was sticking too much to basic rules and not thinking enough about other important issues like changes in meaning. I will take your advice and ask around my Hungarian colleagues and friends - I haven't had a chance yet!
Bye for now! Until the next problem.....

[Leven2e]